The Eden Bass Amps Forum

Eden Electronics Forum => Eden General => Topic started by: Stu_bass on June 05, 2019, 11:36:44 PM

Title: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 05, 2019, 11:36:44 PM
Hi gang
I’m a newbie with newbie questions.

Recently bought my first bass and combo.
Aria STB & Ampeg 25 watt for personal play.

I had a jam with a drummer and he said he couldn’t hear me. I needed to get louder.

I found a rig on gumtree. Head & 410 cab.

Eden nemesis NA 320 head
200 watts RMS output 8 ohms
320 watts - 4 ohms

Eden nemesis 410 cabinet
         500 watts 4 ohms.

I’m louder.

I am pondering getting an extra cab for no particular reason.

I know about the NSP 210 and NSP 115.
Both Eden nemesis speaker options.

Eden nemesis NSP 210 (300w rms 4/8 ohms)
——————- NSP 115 (250 w rms 8 ohms

If I got them both can the head actually handle a 410, 210 & 115?

There are ohm implications which I don’t really understand.

I don’t even know if I’ll be louder.

Or should I settle for choosing between a 210 and 115?

If I GET BOTH I think I’d be able two plug two in parallel and then link the third in series.

Is my head powerful enough for a 2nd or even third cab?

I know it’s a lot of questions but I know I’m asking the right people.

Fire away!

Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 06, 2019, 02:05:23 AM
I was wondering if it was possible to parallel input the 210 and 115 and then serial input the 410 into the 115.
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Paulinderwick on June 06, 2019, 07:11:21 AM
Have you read the manual yet?  https://edenamps.net/assets/4012.038_na320.pdf
You can go as low as 2ohms it says, but no lower.  You have two jack outputs and two speakon outputs - the speakons should give you a better signal as there is more wire in contact.  Assuming you add a second cab to the 410 (and any more than that is surely overkill!!!) you will be adding either an 8 ohm speaker - the two together will present your amp with a 2.667ohm load, or a 4ohm speaker which will present the minimum load of 2 ohms.  Running speakers in serial rather than parallel mode adds the ohmage together and seriously reduces the volume from the amplifier as it has to work harder to drive the load.  It is certainly powerful enough for a second cab and the volume you (and your drummer) hear is a function of the amount of air you move - so more speakers will always increase volume more than extra power.  Of the two cabs you're looking at the 115 might be a better option than the 210, but if you can try them out because that is personal choice...
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 06, 2019, 04:49:51 PM
Thank you sir.

Your advice has helped chuck out the 210 option.

I can’t locate the section in the manual where it says I could operate a 410 and 115 without fear of blowing the head.

I know you all have better things to do that educate me but .... all help humbly appreciated.



Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Paulinderwick on June 06, 2019, 06:58:35 PM
Page 8 - "Speaker Outputs – These consist of two ¼ inch jacks and two NL-4
connector (sometimes called a Speakon). The jacks are wired in parallel. The
total speaker load impedance should not go below 2 ohms. On NL-4
connectors, we use +1, -1 connections. "
The other thing to follow is the advice in the manual on setting up your sound -pages 10 onwards - this is critical, beginners often think that the way to go is to boost the bass but this drains power, so follow the instructions and my guess is that with your existing 410 your drummer will ask YOU to turn down...  Mids are good is the message in a practical band situation, really low notes don't work... Rock on, as our old mentor used to say - keep thumpin'
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Rip Van Dan on June 07, 2019, 12:32:36 AM
Hi Stu,

Paul's given you some great advice, but I would actually differ from his advice a bit in some places. 

First off, whichever additional speaker you get, be sure to get the 8 ohm version.  Reason for this is that if you get a cabinet rated at 4 ohms, it will draw twice as much power as your 410 will.  If your second cab is a 4 ohm cab, it will draw 213.55-watts and your 410 will only draw 106.7-watts.  If the second cab is an 8 ohm cab, than both cabs will draw equal amounts of power up to 160-watts each. That's an important point to keep in mind. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 115 is going to have a much different sound than the 410.  The 410 is going to have a crisp sound because those 10" speakers have better transients - they move quicker.  The 115 cab on the other hand has a rounder sound for lack of a better definition.  In the old days it was called a "wooly sound" but they're not really "wooly" anymore.  Still because they are bigger, things happen just slightly slower and their transients aren't as quick as the 10" speakers.  It is really more of an old school sound. That's not something you can see but you can certainly hear the difference.

Personally I would be inclined to go with the 210 because they are going to have the same sound that is coming out of your 410, just more of it.  Again it's a personal choice but I would rather run six 10's than a 410 and a 115.

I should clarify here, I ran a 410 and a 115 for many years.  EQ was a challenge with it because the 115 I had was the GK115bpx.  That's their cheapest 115 and it's nowhere near to the quality of other GK gear I've used in the past.  It is a very boomy cabinet.  With a GK amp, I could not stop it from roaring muddiness (is that a word?). 

I got an acoustic B410 to run with it, which really gave me some volume and sounded better, but with each cab getting half the power, that 115 was still muddying things up.  I had to drop the Bass EQ down to 10 o'clock or even 9:30 to get rid of the mud. That didn't help that poor acoustic B410 at all as it didn't have the greatest low end to start with anyhow.  But I got it to sound good and gigged with that set up until 2010.  I ran that 410+115 stack with a Nemesis RS400, which is a later model of your NA-320.   It puts out 400 watts @ 4ohms, so each cab got 200-watts.

In 2010, I bought my hot-rodded WT500 directly from David Nordschow hisownself.  That had been boosted to 400-watts per channel @ 4 ohms and could be bridged  with a full 800-watts into 8 ohms.  I usually refer to it as my WT500/800.  It has 2 power channels in it so I would plug the 115 into one side of the amp and my 410 into the other.  It also has this magic knob called "Balance" which let me balance the sound I got out of those channels.  But turning that knob a little towards the 410 side, the 115 was quieter and the 410 was louder.  The big advantage for that was that I could tame the boominess of that GK cabinet without sacrificing the low end on the acoustic 410.  Much better sound all around. 

Now the Eden Nemesis cabs are far better than those cabs I was using but you still need to expect to hear some roundness or wooliness when you combine the two that might require some EQ adjustments to get a sound you like.  Opting for the 210 eliminates that problem.  If you like the sound you're getting out of your 410 now, then I'd opt for the 210 because it's just going to be more of the same sound and I guarantee you NOBODY is going to tell you that running through a 610 set-up isn't going to be loud enough.

Another thing you'll hear about mixing a 410 with a 115 is that there is often some phase cancellation and distribution cancellation with that set up because the speakers are moving at slightly different speeds and the sound coverage from the 410 is wider than the 115.  In my experience, that can be a problem, but I won't say it always is.  I actually would be surprised if it was a problem with Eden gear because David Nordschow designed that gear and I'd be real surprised if he didn't make sure they sounded good together.

Years ago the 115 was often mated with the 410 because the 410's didn't have an adequate bottom end.  Now days, the 210 and 410 cabs typically have the lowest and tightest bottom end of any speakers.  The 115 usually doesn't go as low as the 410 and 210 cabs do now.

The real answer though is that you should really see if you can try both with your amp and 410 to see which one you like.  It's such a personal thing to say which one sounds better.  I know I would choose the 210 but, I'm not you.

Dan
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 07, 2019, 01:17:19 AM
Gentleman I am in awe of your wisdom and experience.
Thank you for your serial & parallel input  ;D
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Bassmann1968 on June 07, 2019, 04:59:28 AM
 ;D

Hi Stu and welcome to the Garden!
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Paulinderwick on June 07, 2019, 06:25:59 AM
As ever some great advice from Dan - I can do the ohm sums but calculating the power drawn by each I leave to Dan - he's the man!  I'd still incline to 115 if you like the sound, personally I like the contrast rather than the upfrontness of more 10s - but that's me and you are you so it is a choice thing.  A thought surfaces from the past - when you get an extra cab it's a good idea to make sure it is running in phase with your current cabinet - so that all six speakers move in the same direction at the same time - if they don't either within a single cab or running to together the out of phaseness will reduce you perceived volume hugely.  Vinnie (it was Vinnie wasn't it?) used to advocate using a 9 volt battery placed in contact with the two terminals of a 1/4" cable to test this (didn't he?)  Having had matched Eden EZ112s for some time I haven't had to do this since the bygone days of using a pair of Roland cubes (I still have one).  I needed to replace the speaker in one and the Vinnie test made sure I got the terminals the right way round.  I seem to remember this was a standard bit of advice in the old days on the forum. If I have misremembered I'm sure Dan and Armin will correct me...
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: TobiasMan on June 07, 2019, 01:09:32 PM
If they are original drivers in Eden cabs, I expect that the speakers will all be in phase if properly connected.


That 9 volt test works great, as you noted, to ensure that new driver installs don't get things out of phase, or if there are ways to connect the speakers in different ways (primarily back in the days of threaded/screw/banana plug connectors which would allow bare speaker wires to be connected opposite from each other).
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Bassmann1968 on June 08, 2019, 02:39:00 AM
I remember I made a picture for the test  ;D

(https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72620_466544373399194_72474831_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-frx5-1.xx&oh=39a2ba93b036976d2bdf6417ddbfac71&oe=5D8CDEBC)
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Paulinderwick on June 08, 2019, 07:51:45 AM
That's the one - always test a second-hand set of speakers because you never know what previous owners have done.  And if the phase is reversed it is a simple matter to switch the terminals on the offending speaker...
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 09, 2019, 06:47:47 PM
If I can’t find another Eden nemesis NSP speaker can I use another kind?
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Paulinderwick on June 10, 2019, 02:13:59 AM
Of course you can - you don't have to match speakers across brands.  Naturally we prefer Eden here, although the founder of Eden, David Nordschow did go on to found another company.  For many years I used an Eden head with cabinets from other companies.  Each had different sound characteristics though and you need to find what you prefer.  Being fairly new to bass playing choosing Eden cabs is a safe choice because the are designed to get the best out of the head, and the head designed to bring the best out of those cabinets.
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Rip Van Dan on June 10, 2019, 02:23:26 PM
Paul is right on regarding speaker cabs.  If you have to get a new cab, I'd recommend taking a look at the EX410.  That should be a pretty close match for not too much money and will sound great with your NA320.

If you talking about a speaker going bad (creased cone, melted voice coil, torn cone, etc), then that will be a bit more of a trick.  The speakers to some of the older Nemesis cabs are no longer available and you can't just throw any 10" speaker in there.  If you have a bad speaker, take a look at the back of it and you should find a model number there. Then check with Eden to find out if they are still available.  Armin will often know off the top of his head if you can still get it from Eden.  You may be able to get it re-coned by a service center in your area which basically uses your speaker frame and replaces all the parts it holds.

I know that Eminence makes some speakers that they recommend for some of the older Eden cabs too, but you'd want to get the real thing if they are available because the cab was built specifically to work with those original speakers.

Dan
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 17, 2019, 09:17:27 PM
Hi
Me again

I’ve managed to get hold of an Eden nemesis NA 700.
Buying that means I guess I sell the na 320.

So this head runs 700 watts at 2ohm
My 410 cab is 500w at 4 ohm.
So to get max value from the watts I need a 2nd cab that’s 200 watts 4 ohm.

Can alone let me know if there’s anything I’m missing there! 👍
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 17, 2019, 09:21:03 PM
If I’ve 700 w at 2 ohm and my cabs = 2.67,
What effect would that have on my overall output?
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Rip Van Dan on June 17, 2019, 10:34:07 PM
Big thing is what speaker cabs you use.  At 2.67 ohms, you'll probably put out around 550 to 600-watts which will be split between the two cabs.  A 410 cab with a 210 cab is going to be louder than the 410 by itself.  Two 410's will be louder than a 410 with a 210 - just more speakers pushing more air. You do have to be careful if you use a 210 cab that your 210 will handle half of the power coming out of the amp.

An important thing to know is that your amp doesn't allocate power according to what each cab can handle.  It sends out power based upon the ohms load it sees and that power is then split between the two cabs, regardless of their power-handling rating.  It's up to you to set up a rig that works well for you.

I would NOT limit myself to cabs that can only handle 200 watts because your amp is going to be splitting the power between the two cabs and if you use another 4 ohm cab, it will be sending up to 350-watts to each cab.  So I'd use 350 to 400-watts as the minimum for any cab you are going to run along with your 4 ohm 410. 

If you use an 8 ohm cab, your 410 will get twice as much power as your 8 ohm cab because the 8 ohm cab has twice the impedance (resistance to power flow) that the 4 ohm cab does.  Although that sounds bad, that's actually not a bad thing if you're adding a 210 to your 410.  Because the 4 ohm 410 would get twice as much power as any 8 ohm 210 it was paired with, all of the speakers would get equal amounts of power. 

As an example, lets say that running a 2.67 ohm load (one 8 ohm cab and one 4 ohm cab) is delivering 600-watts (should be close to that).  Since the 4 ohm cab will get twice the watts that the 8 ohm does, your 410 would get 400-watts to spread between its 4 speakers and your 210 would get 200 watts to split between 2 speakers.  That means that every speaker you have will each get 100-watts if you dime the amp.  No worries about blowing out your 210's speakers or your 410's for that matter unless you do some crazy EQ settings, such as boosting your Bass EQ way up.

You can certainly get another 4 ohm cab and then each cab would split the power evenly between them  Net result is that each speaker in your 210 would get 175-watts (350-watts divided by 2) and each speaker in the 410 will get 87.5-watts (350-watts divided by 4).  That means the speakers in the 210 work twice as hard as the speakers in the 410 and you have to be careful that you don't stress the 210 by running it above the power it's rated for - not really safe to feed 350-watts to a a cab rated at 200-watts power-handling.   You can control how many watts you send to it depending upon how high you turn up your master, but it would actually be pretty "iffy" to run a 200-watt speaker cab when your amp can deliver 150-watts more than it can possibly handle.  As long as you don't turn it up too far and the speakers don't make farting sounds, you'd be OK.  But with an amp that will deliver that much more power than the cab can handle it's fairly easy to damage the speakers before you realize you're stressing them.

Hope that helps,
   Dan
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 18, 2019, 04:58:29 AM
Hi Stu,

Paul's given you some great advice, but I would actually differ from his advice a bit in some places. 

First off, whichever additional speaker you get, be sure to get the 8 ohm version.  Reason for this is that if you get a cabinet rated at 4 ohms, it will draw twice as much power as your 410 will.  If your second cab is a 4 ohm cab, it will draw 213.55-watts and your 410 will only draw 106.7-watts.  If the second cab is an 8 ohm cab, than both cabs will draw equal amounts of power up to 160-watts each. That's an important point to keep in mind.

Hi

My current 410 is 4ohm so if I get another 4 ohm cab will one really draw more watts than the other.
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Bassmann1968 on June 18, 2019, 07:06:06 AM
No, both 4 Ohm, both cabs get the same amount of power.
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 18, 2019, 07:29:43 AM
Thanks bassmam
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Rip Van Dan on June 18, 2019, 02:34:31 PM
Hi Stu,

Paul's given you some great advice, but I would actually differ from his advice a bit in some places. 

First off, whichever additional speaker you get, be sure to get the 8 ohm version.  Reason for this is that if you get a cabinet rated at 4 ohms, it will draw twice as much power as your 410 will.  If your second cab is a 4 ohm cab, it will draw 213.55-watts and your 410 will only draw 106.7-watts.  If the second cab is an 8 ohm cab, than both cabs will draw equal amounts of power up to 160-watts each. That's an important point to keep in mind.

Hi

My current 410 is 4ohm so if I get another 4 ohm cab will one really draw more watts than the other.

Sorry about that Stu. I meant it would draw twice as much as the 8 ohm cab. I mistakenly thought your 410 was an 8 ohm cab at  the time.  4 ohm cabs draw the same amount.  With an 8 ohm and 4 ohm mix of cabs, the 4ohm cab will draw twice as much power as the 8 ohm.  With two 4 ohm cabs, they both will draw the same amount.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dan
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Stu_bass on June 18, 2019, 09:04:45 PM
That’s ok dan
Thanks for your help

The outcome is

I’ve ordered the RS 700 (550 w at 4 ohm) and plugging in the NSP 500 watt 4 ohm.

I understand now that I don’t any more speakers or cabs on top of that.

The na 360 is up for sale.
Title: Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
Post by: Rip Van Dan on June 19, 2019, 02:34:12 PM
Hey Stu, fell free to list it in our classified section with pictures.

Dan