Author Topic: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc  (Read 479 times)

Offline Stu_bass

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Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« on: June 05, 2019, 11:36:44 PM »
Hi gang
I’m a newbie with newbie questions.

Recently bought my first bass and combo.
Aria STB & Ampeg 25 watt for personal play.

I had a jam with a drummer and he said he couldn’t hear me. I needed to get louder.

I found a rig on gumtree. Head & 410 cab.

Eden nemesis NA 320 head
200 watts RMS output 8 ohms
320 watts - 4 ohms

Eden nemesis 410 cabinet
         500 watts 4 ohms.

I’m louder.

I am pondering getting an extra cab for no particular reason.

I know about the NSP 210 and NSP 115.
Both Eden nemesis speaker options.

Eden nemesis NSP 210 (300w rms 4/8 ohms)
——————- NSP 115 (250 w rms 8 ohms

If I got them both can the head actually handle a 410, 210 & 115?

There are ohm implications which I don’t really understand.

I don’t even know if I’ll be louder.

Or should I settle for choosing between a 210 and 115?

If I GET BOTH I think I’d be able two plug two in parallel and then link the third in series.

Is my head powerful enough for a 2nd or even third cab?

I know it’s a lot of questions but I know I’m asking the right people.

Fire away!


Offline Stu_bass

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 02:05:23 AM »
I was wondering if it was possible to parallel input the 210 and 115 and then serial input the 410 into the 115.

Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 07:11:21 AM »
Have you read the manual yet?  https://edenamps.net/assets/4012.038_na320.pdf
You can go as low as 2ohms it says, but no lower.  You have two jack outputs and two speakon outputs - the speakons should give you a better signal as there is more wire in contact.  Assuming you add a second cab to the 410 (and any more than that is surely overkill!!!) you will be adding either an 8 ohm speaker - the two together will present your amp with a 2.667ohm load, or a 4ohm speaker which will present the minimum load of 2 ohms.  Running speakers in serial rather than parallel mode adds the ohmage together and seriously reduces the volume from the amplifier as it has to work harder to drive the load.  It is certainly powerful enough for a second cab and the volume you (and your drummer) hear is a function of the amount of air you move - so more speakers will always increase volume more than extra power.  Of the two cabs you're looking at the 115 might be a better option than the 210, but if you can try them out because that is personal choice...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Stu_bass

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 04:49:51 PM »
Thank you sir.

Your advice has helped chuck out the 210 option.

I can’t locate the section in the manual where it says I could operate a 410 and 115 without fear of blowing the head.

I know you all have better things to do that educate me but .... all help humbly appreciated.




Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2019, 06:58:35 PM »
Page 8 - "Speaker Outputs – These consist of two ¼ inch jacks and two NL-4
connector (sometimes called a Speakon). The jacks are wired in parallel. The
total speaker load impedance should not go below 2 ohms. On NL-4
connectors, we use +1, -1 connections. "
The other thing to follow is the advice in the manual on setting up your sound -pages 10 onwards - this is critical, beginners often think that the way to go is to boost the bass but this drains power, so follow the instructions and my guess is that with your existing 410 your drummer will ask YOU to turn down...  Mids are good is the message in a practical band situation, really low notes don't work... Rock on, as our old mentor used to say - keep thumpin'
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 12:32:36 AM »
Hi Stu,

Paul's given you some great advice, but I would actually differ from his advice a bit in some places. 

First off, whichever additional speaker you get, be sure to get the 8 ohm version.  Reason for this is that if you get a cabinet rated at 4 ohms, it will draw twice as much power as your 410 will.  If your second cab is a 4 ohm cab, it will draw 213.55-watts and your 410 will only draw 106.7-watts.  If the second cab is an 8 ohm cab, than both cabs will draw equal amounts of power up to 160-watts each. That's an important point to keep in mind. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 115 is going to have a much different sound than the 410.  The 410 is going to have a crisp sound because those 10" speakers have better transients - they move quicker.  The 115 cab on the other hand has a rounder sound for lack of a better definition.  In the old days it was called a "wooly sound" but they're not really "wooly" anymore.  Still because they are bigger, things happen just slightly slower and their transients aren't as quick as the 10" speakers.  It is really more of an old school sound. That's not something you can see but you can certainly hear the difference.

Personally I would be inclined to go with the 210 because they are going to have the same sound that is coming out of your 410, just more of it.  Again it's a personal choice but I would rather run six 10's than a 410 and a 115.

I should clarify here, I ran a 410 and a 115 for many years.  EQ was a challenge with it because the 115 I had was the GK115bpx.  That's their cheapest 115 and it's nowhere near to the quality of other GK gear I've used in the past.  It is a very boomy cabinet.  With a GK amp, I could not stop it from roaring muddiness (is that a word?). 

I got an acoustic B410 to run with it, which really gave me some volume and sounded better, but with each cab getting half the power, that 115 was still muddying things up.  I had to drop the Bass EQ down to 10 o'clock or even 9:30 to get rid of the mud. That didn't help that poor acoustic B410 at all as it didn't have the greatest low end to start with anyhow.  But I got it to sound good and gigged with that set up until 2010.  I ran that 410+115 stack with a Nemesis RS400, which is a later model of your NA-320.   It puts out 400 watts @ 4ohms, so each cab got 200-watts.

In 2010, I bought my hot-rodded WT500 directly from David Nordschow hisownself.  That had been boosted to 400-watts per channel @ 4 ohms and could be bridged  with a full 800-watts into 8 ohms.  I usually refer to it as my WT500/800.  It has 2 power channels in it so I would plug the 115 into one side of the amp and my 410 into the other.  It also has this magic knob called "Balance" which let me balance the sound I got out of those channels.  But turning that knob a little towards the 410 side, the 115 was quieter and the 410 was louder.  The big advantage for that was that I could tame the boominess of that GK cabinet without sacrificing the low end on the acoustic 410.  Much better sound all around. 

Now the Eden Nemesis cabs are far better than those cabs I was using but you still need to expect to hear some roundness or wooliness when you combine the two that might require some EQ adjustments to get a sound you like.  Opting for the 210 eliminates that problem.  If you like the sound you're getting out of your 410 now, then I'd opt for the 210 because it's just going to be more of the same sound and I guarantee you NOBODY is going to tell you that running through a 610 set-up isn't going to be loud enough.

Another thing you'll hear about mixing a 410 with a 115 is that there is often some phase cancellation and distribution cancellation with that set up because the speakers are moving at slightly different speeds and the sound coverage from the 410 is wider than the 115.  In my experience, that can be a problem, but I won't say it always is.  I actually would be surprised if it was a problem with Eden gear because David Nordschow designed that gear and I'd be real surprised if he didn't make sure they sounded good together.

Years ago the 115 was often mated with the 410 because the 410's didn't have an adequate bottom end.  Now days, the 210 and 410 cabs typically have the lowest and tightest bottom end of any speakers.  The 115 usually doesn't go as low as the 410 and 210 cabs do now.

The real answer though is that you should really see if you can try both with your amp and 410 to see which one you like.  It's such a personal thing to say which one sounds better.  I know I would choose the 210 but, I'm not you.

Dan
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 12:39:13 AM by Rip Van Dan »
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8, Eden EX112 x2
Line6 G10s wireless
==
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, BPX115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Stu_bass

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 01:17:19 AM »
Gentleman I am in awe of your wisdom and experience.
Thank you for your serial & parallel input  ;D

Offline Bassmann1968

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 04:59:28 AM »
 ;D

Hi Stu and welcome to the Garden!
Armin

PLEASE LIKE EDEN ON FACEBOOK!!!
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Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2019, 06:25:59 AM »
As ever some great advice from Dan - I can do the ohm sums but calculating the power drawn by each I leave to Dan - he's the man!  I'd still incline to 115 if you like the sound, personally I like the contrast rather than the upfrontness of more 10s - but that's me and you are you so it is a choice thing.  A thought surfaces from the past - when you get an extra cab it's a good idea to make sure it is running in phase with your current cabinet - so that all six speakers move in the same direction at the same time - if they don't either within a single cab or running to together the out of phaseness will reduce you perceived volume hugely.  Vinnie (it was Vinnie wasn't it?) used to advocate using a 9 volt battery placed in contact with the two terminals of a 1/4" cable to test this (didn't he?)  Having had matched Eden EZ112s for some time I haven't had to do this since the bygone days of using a pair of Roland cubes (I still have one).  I needed to replace the speaker in one and the Vinnie test made sure I got the terminals the right way round.  I seem to remember this was a standard bit of advice in the old days on the forum. If I have misremembered I'm sure Dan and Armin will correct me...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline TobiasMan

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2019, 01:09:32 PM »
If they are original drivers in Eden cabs, I expect that the speakers will all be in phase if properly connected.


That 9 volt test works great, as you noted, to ensure that new driver installs don't get things out of phase, or if there are ways to connect the speakers in different ways (primarily back in the days of threaded/screw/banana plug connectors which would allow bare speaker wires to be connected opposite from each other).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 03:50:00 PM by TobiasMan »
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410XLT, 410XST, Generic bin with 2 15" EVs

Offline Bassmann1968

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2019, 02:39:00 AM »
I remember I made a picture for the test  ;D

Armin

PLEASE LIKE EDEN ON FACEBOOK!!!
No schematics available!!! Don't ask for it.
;)

WTP-Pre,1350,WTX260,WT300/400,WT1000,WTX1000N,NAV,WTDI
D112XLT,D210XST,D410XLT,D810RP,DNS410,DNS112

Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2019, 07:51:45 AM »
That's the one - always test a second-hand set of speakers because you never know what previous owners have done.  And if the phase is reversed it is a simple matter to switch the terminals on the offending speaker...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Stu_bass

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2019, 06:47:47 PM »
If I can’t find another Eden nemesis NSP speaker can I use another kind?

Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 02:13:59 AM »
Of course you can - you don't have to match speakers across brands.  Naturally we prefer Eden here, although the founder of Eden, David Nordschow did go on to found another company.  For many years I used an Eden head with cabinets from other companies.  Each had different sound characteristics though and you need to find what you prefer.  Being fairly new to bass playing choosing Eden cabs is a safe choice because the are designed to get the best out of the head, and the head designed to bring the best out of those cabinets.
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: Newbie question nemesis ohms etc
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 02:23:26 PM »
Paul is right on regarding speaker cabs.  If you have to get a new cab, I'd recommend taking a look at the EX410.  That should be a pretty close match for not too much money and will sound great with your NA320.

If you talking about a speaker going bad (creased cone, melted voice coil, torn cone, etc), then that will be a bit more of a trick.  The speakers to some of the older Nemesis cabs are no longer available and you can't just throw any 10" speaker in there.  If you have a bad speaker, take a look at the back of it and you should find a model number there. Then check with Eden to find out if they are still available.  Armin will often know off the top of his head if you can still get it from Eden.  You may be able to get it re-coned by a service center in your area which basically uses your speaker frame and replaces all the parts it holds.

I know that Eminence makes some speakers that they recommend for some of the older Eden cabs too, but you'd want to get the real thing if they are available because the cab was built specifically to work with those original speakers.

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8, Eden EX112 x2
Line6 G10s wireless
==
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, BPX115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)