Author Topic: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing  (Read 726 times)

Offline Warwick of Eden

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WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« on: March 02, 2019, 09:12:24 AM »
Hello All, I'm excited to join the community and sorry if this topic has been beaten to death but I have gained no assurances from surfing this forum and Talkbass. I recently received the beautiful WTP600, which its recommended cab in the Eden website is the D410XST, now this may be because the D410XLT is apparently discontinued. after doing some research in these forums, I saw that the D410XST is better for 5 string players and lower notes, this may be incorrect but that's what I inferred from most comments. Anyway I ordered a used D410XST which I should receive any day, but while I was trying to get some clarification with a person at Musicians Friends on how to connect this cab to the amp (i am impedance illiterate) the Rep said "If you underpower the cab, it'll sound like its underwater, or just do nothing but distort. eventually will also damage the speakers so I strongly recommend against it" now I've read a lot of articles debunking this myth, but at this point, I am more confused than anything. I just want a cab that will get the most out of the amp but will prolong its life by not exploding. I've also read that the D410XLT's 700 Watts is ideal for the WTP600. I am obviously over my head with this, I am an accountant and Ohms math gives me anxiety, any help is appreciated. Thanks!


Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2019, 09:33:47 AM »
If the WTP put out 60 watts you might have a problem but with 600 watts - this isn't a mismatch at all.  Your new speaker will simply handle slightly more power than you can throw at it but it won't make any difference at all that you will be able to hear. To increase perceived volume (as you hear it) by 10% you would need to double the wattage of amplifier, go from 600 watts to 1,200.  So your amp at 600 and your cabinet at 700 is actually, sonically, a very good match.  If you use a higher power amplifier you would need at very high volumes to make sure you didn't overload the speaker but this combination is perfect.  To connect simply get a Speakon cable (you could use ordinary jack-plugs and sockets but Speakon gives a better and safer connection) and you are good to go.

Welcome to the garden - and enjoy, with that combination I'm sure you will...  others will jump in with advice as to how to get the best sound as well...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Warwick of Eden

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2019, 09:48:52 AM »
Great Thanks, I will post back when I receive the cab (D410XST 1000W). not sure if its 4 or 8 Ohms so I will certainly have more questions regarding optimal performance/connectivity.

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2019, 02:38:32 PM »
Hi Warwick of Eden,

Welcome to the Garden!

Underpowering a speaker cab is nothing less than Hogwash.  If you've been on Talkbass at all, there are numerous strings about debunking that old wive's tale.  I'm sorry to hear you are being fed that kind of garbage from a music store.

Even if your amp could produce 1000-watts at 4 ohms instead of the 600-watts, using the "don't underpower the cab" theory, you'd have to run it wide open and then would still be "underpowering it".  Every time you turn your master below 100% you'd be underpowering it and that thought is nothing but bunk!

Yes you do want to have a cab that will be close to output of your amp, just for better efficiency.   Most commonly, the thing that wrecks cabs is overpowering them, either by pushing too much current through them and melting the voice coil, or by running the bass EQ all the way up and exceeding the cabs Xmax rating (maximum speaker  extension).  With your amp at 600-watts and the XST able to handle 1000-watts of power, you will in all likelihood never come close to damaging your speakers

I have a 410 cab built by the same fellow that designed your new XST and it can handle 1400-watts RMS.  I can't imagine ever putting that much through it.  I pair that with my WT500/800 (800-watts bridged) that I bought directly from David after he left Eden.  It is a "damn loud cabinet".  So I have 800 watts available for my cab to use and that won't stress my cab at all.  I typically run my 800-watt amp from 9 o'clock to 9:30 on the master.  I have never been able to run it above 10 o'clock indoors or outdoors without being told to "turn it down!".

Now your new XST has some similar ratings for efficiency.  The D410XST will produce 103db @ 1-watt/1-meter.  Using that as a starting point, it should take all of 64-watts for you to hit 121db with it.   If you max out your amp, it will produce somewhere near 131db, which is not only painful but can cause immediate hearing damage. Your 600 watts won't stress your XST at all.  It can easily handle the amount of power your amp will produce as long as you don't do something stupid with the EQ.  And it will be more than loud enough for anywhere you'd choose to play.

Also, Paul pointed out  earlier, every 3db gain in volume requires a doubling of the power OR a doubling of speaker area.  If you add a second cab you will get a 3db boost in volume.  That is the reason many folks opt to buy 8 ohm cabs instead of 4 ohm cabs.  None of the WTP amps can handle a 2 ohm load.  They have a 4 ohm minimum.  So, if your XST is a 4 ohm cab, it will be able to get the maximum amount of power from your cab. 

The disadvantage is that you can't add another cab because the amp can't handle anything less than a 4 ohm load and running two 4 ohm cabs produces a 2 ohm load.  With an 8 ohm speaker cabinet, you typically lose 3db of sound, but you can then add a second cab, which will give you that 3db loss back and gives you 300-watts for each cab because the lower ohms load  (two 8 ohm cabs connected in parallel = 4 ohm load) allows all of the power from your amp to be available.  And really, that will produce more than enough db for pretty much anyplace you'd ever play.

If your XST cab is an 8 ohm cab, you'll get about 300-watts from your WTP600.  Even with that much lower wattage, you'll still be able to get around 127db from your XST cab.  Add a second cab and it will go up to 130db.  Odds are though, with very few exceptions, you won't need to add a second cab.

Dan
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 02:53:10 PM by Rip Van Dan »
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8, Eden EX112 x2
Line6 G10s wireless
==
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, BPX115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
Hi Warwick of Eden,

One thing I should mention about the D410XLT vs the D410XST.  The XLT cabs have a built in low-mid hump which just cuts through the mix very nicely and allows the bass to be heard cleanly in the mix.  The XST cabs do not have this built in low-mid hump but rather have a very flat frequency response.  The XST also has a lower bass response - 36Hz for the XST vs. 50Hz for the XLT.  To your ear, that means the XST has a tighter, more focused low-end than the XLT.  That's a good thing, even if you never run a 5-string bass through it.

However that low-mid hump that is built in to the XLT really sounds good and is a very desirable sound. It's what really made Eden cabs famous to begin with. You can get close to that sound with your XST by boosting ~250Hz with your semi-parametric controls.  You do that with either the first or second one; either one can get you to that frequency.  That's what I do with my cab because it also has a very flat frequency response.  It won't sound exactly like an XLT, but it will be close.  I usually run my boost at about 1:30.  Use your ears to figure out how much boost you like best.

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8, Eden EX112 x2
Line6 G10s wireless
==
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, BPX115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Warwick of Eden

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2019, 03:18:06 PM »
Thank you so much Dan, this helps out a lot!!

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2019, 04:03:15 PM »
AND...as long as we're talking about under-powering and over-powering cabs, I should let you know that I am running a set-up about half the time where my amp is very much capable of blowing out my speakers.

I recently bought one of the EX112 cabs for a small club that I play each week.  I bought the first one at 4 ohms figuring I would only ever use the one. I liked it so much I decided to get a second one.   After all, I had my 410 which I could use anywhere.  So I ordered another 4 ohm cab.  Now my amp won't handle a 2 ohm load, but it has two channels and each will handle a 4 ohm load.  So I plug one of them into the left channel and the other into the right channel, keeping the balance knob straight up so both get the same amount of power.

Problem is that each channel can put out up to 400-watts and each speaker can only handle 300-watts.  Actually, it's really not a problem at all because I never run these at full power AND I run a very clean sound - no distortion - so it's easy to hear if my speakers start to get stressed (start to distort).  It's called using your ears and is something bassists have been using forever.  If you are pushing a speaker too much, it starts to make farting sounds.  If you hear that, the first thing to do is drop the Bass EQ a bit.  If that doesn't get rid of the problem, then you MUST drop the master volume until it goes away.

If you do nothing, the first thing that will happen is you will crease your speaker cones, then melt their voice coil, and finally tear the speakers.  But there's no need to ever have to deal with that problem.  All you have to do is pay attention to what you are hearing.  If you look back over the years, a very common set-up was an Eden WT800 into a D410XLT.  They were everywhere.  And yet, the amp can put out 100-watts more than the speaker cab can handle.  I would venture to say almost no one ever ran that WT800 at maximum.  As long as you are aware that there is more power available than your speakers can handle and you LISTEN to what you are playing, it's no problem.

With my two EX112's hooked up to my WT500/800, I find myself usually running it around 9 or 9:30 on the master volume.  So that's not pushing them much at all and it sounds really good.  So under-powering is a myth, and over-powering isn't.  Over-powering is not a problem though if you  just listen to what you're playing and adjust it if your hear your speakers getting stressed.

Hope that helps,
   Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8, Eden EX112 x2
Line6 G10s wireless
==
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, BPX115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Warwick of Eden

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Re: WTP 600 Optimal cab pairing
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2019, 01:58:42 PM »
Thank you for the detailed response, I really appreciate it!!!!