Author Topic: still shopping for my first real bass amp  (Read 1731 times)

Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2018, 10:50:33 AM »
Pushing Air is simply describing the perceived volume - the greater the surface area of the speaker or speakers the louder it will seem even if it is driven by the same amount of electrical power - that is why the advice is usually maximise the surface area of your speakers rather than increase the output of your amplifier.  Greater area = more air pushed!  Another feature (sorry to complicate matters further!) is the degree of responsiveness of the speaker - a smaller speaker will be more responsive than a larger - so a 10" speaker is ofter described as being more punchy than a 15" speaker, the difference is largely in what we call the "mid"  frequencies - bass frequencies eat a lot of power and a larger speaker generally produces lower frequencies but can be flappy.  A 10" is more responsive and will produce better sounds in your ear because, and this sounds strange, when playing with a band you DON'T want more bass to be heard better - you actually want more 'mids' to cut through.  If you decide to go down the Eden route you've described you will not be displeased and remember - we are always here to help out if needed...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline Bob Cruz

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2018, 12:15:11 PM »
...
I've tried a few 115 (Fender, Ampeg, MarkBass, etc.) combos at Guitar Center but never anything with 2 or more speakers and let me tell you they didn't have much "air" probably because the room was big or the single speaker was just dull.
Combos rarely have enough internal volume for the speaker to work properly, resulting in a lack of deep bass and often a boomy sound.  Not always but that's what you encounter most.  It's part of the compromise of making combos portable.
Bob Cruz

GB Streamliner 900 and 600 - Peavey USA Cirrus 5 - SX Jazz 5 x2 - BC Rich Mockingbird 5 - Cruz 112 x2 (22 pound flyweight cabs I built) - Kustom 115 D140F - Avatar Neo 112 x 2 - Modded Fender Rumble 40 x2

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2018, 03:36:36 PM »
***SNIP***
You said not many 410s sound good, but would this be an exception or it's better to get a pair of 210s than a single 410?

***SNIP***

Just realized I missed this from an earlier post.  I did NOT say most 410's don't sound good.  What I said was that a lot of 410 plus 115 cabs used in a stack don't sound good.  Reason for that is some phase cancellation issues between the two vastly dissimilar  speaker sizes as well as different dispersion so you can get cross frequency cancellation as well.  Basically, you have to try it to see if it works because unless those two cabs were designed to work well together, it's a bit of a pig-in-poke on whether or not it will sound good.  The particular set-up I used did indeed sound good together run the way I ran them through my WT500/800 amp.  I don't use that anymore because my newer single 410 cab is louder, clearer, and far more sensitive than my old stack (takes less power to be loud).

So let me make this perfectly clear, I personally really LIKE a good 410 and a great 410 is the ONLY cabinet I use now.  Yes I would like to have a couple of 112's because they are easier to transport and I can just use one if that's all I need for the gig.  But, I don't have two 112's and it would have been more expensive for me to get two 112's instead of one 410.  So I got the 410 and haven't looked back since.

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8
Line6 X2-XDS wireless
=========
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, GK 115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2018, 03:51:32 PM »
I'd like to comment a bit on what Paul said.  Pushing more air with additional speakers is actually very descriptive of what happens because you have twice as many speakers pushing the air to make the sound.  Doubling your speaker area with another cab typically gives you 3db more volume than using one cab. It's not just perceived it is measurable. 

To put it in perspective with amp power, you have to double the power to get an additional 3db.  So if you are using a 500 watt amp you would need to use a 1000-watt amp to gain that same 3db gain in sound volume.

The deal on speaker sensitivity is that  the more sensitive it is, the less power it takes to get loud.   Really, anything rated at 99db @1W/1M is considered excellent sensitivity.  Some of the Eden cabs, such as the D410XST and the D410XLT have much more than that.  The D410XST has a sensitivity rating of 104db@1W/1M, and the D410XLT is rated at 106db@1W/1M.  Those are very high sensitivity ratings.
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8
Line6 X2-XDS wireless
=========
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, GK 115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 04:28:43 PM »
AND, as long as we're talking about speakers, I need to correct a common misconception about bass speakers.  You will NOT get the lowest lows from either 12", 15", or even 18" speakers.  The lowest sound you get will come from 10" speakers used in pairs.

If you take a look at the frequency response of Eden's D210XST you will see that it goes down as low as 30Hz.  It's frequency range is 30Hz - 14KHz. The low B on a 5-string bass is 31Hz, so it will accurately produce the fundamental of that low B.  All of the Eden D-series XST cabs produce a lower and tighter bottom end than the XLT cabs.  The Eden D210XLT by comparison goes down to 48Hz.  So that XST cab goes much lower.

Now take a look at the D212XST cab - it's 40Hz - 14KHz.  The D112XST goes down to 32Hz.  The old D215XLT was 40Hz, and the current D115XLT is 46Hz.  The old D118XL (not SLT because no tweeter in this cab) had a frequency response of 42Hz– 2.5KHz.  So larger speaker no longer means lower bottom end.  It used to, but it doesn't any more. 

The 12" and 15" speakers do however have a different character to their sound.  The 10" speakers are as Paul mentioned punchier, primarily because they reproduce transients faster than the 12" or 15" speakers.  The modern 12" and 15" Eden speakers are far punchier than the 12's and 15's of old but there is  a noticeable difference in sound between them and the 10's.  AND a LOT of people like that different sound.  Often you'll hear folks talk about 12's as having a "rounder" sound and 15's as having an "old school sound".  Really tight lows are not necessarily the sound everyone looks for.  It's a matter of personal taste.

Good news is that even if your cab doesn't really produce the low fundamental, it still produces the overtones from that fundamental and the human ear recognizes that low B sound even though the fundamental frequency may not be reproduced at a high enough level to make it up into the published frequency response.  The character of the sound is much different though and the XST sounds tighter and more well defined than the XLT does at those low frequencies.

I think I've probably muddied the waters enough for now... ;)

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8
Line6 X2-XDS wireless
=========
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, GK 115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline TobiasMan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 06:48:00 PM »
Thanks for "muddying the waters" Dan.


Complex topic and you do a good job of getting the information out in an understandable manner.  :D
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NXT5 EUB, MTD 535 Fretless, Tobias Killer B-6, 72 Fender Precision
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410XLT, 410XST, Generic bin with 2 15" EVs

Offline Paulinderwick

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 07:05:49 PM »
Dan nailed it - as always...
UK member, WT330, WTX260, 2 x EX112 (both 4 ohm), WTDI, and a Microtour as well as a Roland Super Cube Bass, Blackstar HT5, Fender Jazz '67, Fretless Fender Jazz '70, Burns Barracuda, Epiphone EB-0, Ashbory, Stagg EUB and guitars and ukuleles and a mandolin as well

Offline bushy

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2018, 12:24:01 AM »
A single 210 or two 210s? Is the latter what you meant by "in pairs"?

The lowest sound you get will come from 10" speakers used in pairs.

Offline bushy

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2018, 04:38:56 AM »
So stacking similar sized speakers would be ideal? I saw on the Eden site the possibility of stacking a 410 with a 210 and vice versa of course:

http://www.edenamps.com/ex210.html

***SNIP***
You said not many 410s sound good, but would this be an exception or it's better to get a pair of 210s than a single 410?

***SNIP***

Just realized I missed this from an earlier post.  I did NOT say most 410's don't sound good.  What I said was that a lot of 410 plus 115 cabs used in a stack don't sound good.  Reason for that is some phase cancellation issues between the two vastly dissimilar  speaker sizes as well as different dispersion so you can get cross frequency cancellation as well.  Basically, you have to try it to see if it works because unless those two cabs were designed to work well together, it's a bit of a pig-in-poke on whether or not it will sound good.  The particular set-up I used did indeed sound good together run the way I ran them through my WT500/800 amp.  I don't use that anymore because my newer single 410 cab is louder, clearer, and far more sensitive than my old stack (takes less power to be loud).

So let me make this perfectly clear, I personally really LIKE a good 410 and a great 410 is the ONLY cabinet I use now.  Yes I would like to have a couple of 112's because they are easier to transport and I can just use one if that's all I need for the gig.  But, I don't have two 112's and it would have been more expensive for me to get two 112's instead of one 410.  So I got the 410 and haven't looked back since.

Dan

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2018, 02:04:48 PM »
Stacking "same" speaker cabs will always work.  Stacking dissimilar speakers cabs sometimes works.  I can tell you from the experiences of folks here on the forum that adding an Eden  210 to a 410 works fine.  In fact one of the things folks like to do is put a D210XST with a D410XLT because that D210XST adds a tighter and clearer bottom end than the D410XLT does.  Another combination that works well is the D212XLT with the D210XST.

If you have any specific questions about which Eden D-series speaker cabs sound good together, just ask Armin.  I believe he has virtually all of the Eden D-series cabs.

So yes, some combinations work well.  Now if you were to mix brands along with different speaker sizes then your odds of a ending up with a good stack of speakers go down quickly.   I was really pretty lucky though because I added a GK115bpx to an acoustic B410.  The 115 was really boomy and the acoustic 410 was pretty light on the bottom end.  With a few adjustments on my amp, I got them to sound good together and they certainly weren't designed to do so.

So mixing different speaker cabs can work, it's just that adding a second cab that is the same as the first cab always works.

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8
Line6 X2-XDS wireless
=========
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, GK 115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)

Offline dbsfgyd1

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2018, 03:11:45 PM »
So stacking similar sized speakers would be ideal? I saw on the Eden site the possibility of stacking a 410 with a 210 and vice versa of course:

http://www.edenamps.com/ex210.html

***SNIP***
You said not many 410s sound good, but would this be an exception or it's better to get a pair of 210s than a single 410?

***SNIP***

Just realized I missed this from an earlier post.  I did NOT say most 410's don't sound good.  What I said was that a lot of 410 plus 115 cabs used in a stack don't sound good.  Reason for that is some phase cancellation issues between the two vastly dissimilar  speaker sizes as well as different dispersion so you can get cross frequency cancellation as well.  Basically, you have to try it to see if it works because unless those two cabs were designed to work well together, it's a bit of a pig-in-poke on whether or not it will sound good.  The particular set-up I used did indeed sound good together run the way I ran them through my WT500/800 amp.  I don't use that anymore because my newer single 410 cab is louder, clearer, and far more sensitive than my old stack (takes less power to be loud).

So let me make this perfectly clear, I personally really LIKE a good 410 and a great 410 is the ONLY cabinet I use now.  Yes I would like to have a couple of 112's because they are easier to transport and I can just use one if that's all I need for the gig.  But, I don't have two 112's and it would have been more expensive for me to get two 112's instead of one 410.  So I got the 410 and haven't looked back since.

Dan

Bushy,

I use (2) 210  D series cabs, one XLT and one XST. The combination is incredible. There are two benefits to having (2) 210 cabs as opposed to a 410. One, it is modular, so if you have a situation, a small venue, or practice requiring less volume, you have half the load to move, but you still have the upside potential of a (4) 10 rig if needed. The second in this case is with these two different design characteristics, you get the full bottom of the XST with the Low mid hump of the XLT, which greatly enhances your ability to hear it in the mix without giving up that nice low end.

I play everything from large venues to outdoor concerts with large bands and I never have trouble hearing myself.
WTDI, WP-100 Navigator, WT-1250, WT 800, D-210-XLT, D-210-XST, Nemesis RS 320-15, Nemesis RS-320-210, Fender USA P-Bass Deluxe, Warwick Corvette 5 string.

Offline bushy

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 07:08:57 PM »
Is 4x10 similar in "coverage" of a 2x12, you think? I just bought a Gallien-Krueger Neo 212, and it's being marketed as something what a 4x10 could do. Mine is an 8 ohm in case I come across another piece. I got it on clearance for half the original price at my local Guitar Center, which was why I jumped on it. It was only $349! My head is a Peavey Minimax.

I'm also a fan of 12"s as you can see - after a hernia operation I decided to reduce the weight I was carrying!  A single 12 gives you about 75% of the surface area of a 2x10 and 65% of a 115.  Doubling up to 2x12 gives you a lot of flexibility.  Because I have both a WTX260 and a WT330 I chose 4ohm cabinets but generally 8ohms are to be preferred unless you have an amp that will go down to 2ohms.  Because of that I use the WTX260 with a single 12 and in bars, even with loudish guitar players and a hard hitting drummer that is sufficient - on a larger stage two of the 12's with the WT330 is a great combination.  The point made about the area that you are pushing is more valid than the wattage you are using - sounds crazy but to double the wattage will only increase perceived volume by about 10%, the same wattage pushing double the surface area will seem, and is, much louder and also, to my ear, makes it sound warmer.  Good hunting...

Offline Rip Van Dan

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Re: still shopping for my first real bass amp
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 09:33:55 PM »
If the cabs are the same quality (say from the same cab series from the same manufacturer), then no, the 212 will not give the volume that the 410 will.  It'll still be a great cab, but you're looking at 24" of speakers vs. 40" of speakers.  That's a very simplistic way to look at it, but it's true.  Now if you were to add another 212 then you'd easily do anything a 410 can do.  Nonetheless, a good 212 cab will cover most of the gigs you'll run into.

They are probably marketing it as better than someone else's 410.  Then power handling and sensitivity come into play.  You have to be careful with marketing statements.  The song Voo-Doo Child comes to mind... ;)

Dan
Rip Van Dan
Dan Gracia
'82 US-made Fender Jazz Bass with maple neck
5-string Rogue LX405 Pro (Surprisingly good "no-name" bass)
WT500/800 Highwayman (signature model)
D.N.S 410-8
Line6 X2-XDS wireless
=========
spares:
Eden RS400, GK BK250, GK 115 cab, acoustic B410 cab, Sunn Beta 202 (2x12)